don't join a local church?

Do you need to regularly attend a local church?  Is it needed to be part of God's family?  And if you do, does it need to be one single congregation?

Is it inappropriate to visit various church locations without settling down, without becoming a signed member?

Why is it important to join one particular local church to the exclusion of all others?

Is it to gain consistent preaching from a single person (pastor or priest)?  Are they the mouthpiece of God and his understanding?  Or, is it to develop relationships among other attendees?

joining a church and understanding God's word

If every local church holds to the same truth, then every preacher will say the same thing, at some time, so it doesn't' matter where you attend.  But, if they are not saying the same thing about topics, or excluding other topics, then we need to take care. We must be responsible and move around, read widely, so as to discover what God is sharing.

Like a human body, was the church designed to exist as a carrier for the mouth?  Is it wise to presume any one person holds all the knowledge of God?  If they can then so be it.  But if not, whether you are at home, a church service, work, school, down the street, wherever you are:

• read the bible yourself
• seek God (prayer) for what he means and what to do with what you discover
• seek to be equipped by apostles, prophets, as well as evangelists, teachers, and pastors (Ephesians 4:11-16)
• encourage people to share their testimonies with one another
• discuss what you learn and consider what others learn (including strangers)
• encourage gifts other than preaching and teaching, as all are equally important for the growth of people and their communities
• ask questions of and for clarity from those who give you information (e.g. pastor/priest)

joining a church and building relationships

Is the body and its gifts limited to a single location?

• Does, or indeed can, every local church, parish, or congregation contain every equipping gift?  What if it is a house church?
• Why do we argue that because "you cannot know every one of God's family, stay put and do what is possible in your chosen local church"?
• Is it even possible to truly know everyone even in a small congregation?
• How could expanding who you interact with help with this and where can you find them?

What makes people one as God the Father and Son are one (John 15)?  Is it being in the same room or something else?  Is it possible to gather but indeed be worlds apart?  Consider your family.  Do you stop being family when individual members go to work and school.  What about when they leave to live elsewhere?

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real love = attending church

The following is a response to a spoken message by Tony Rainbow of Victory Church (Adelaide, Australia) to the people of Fusion City Church (Canberra – Australia)

audio link

 

Topic being shared: Staying the Course

For the most part this message shared was positive.  However, part way through Tony stated:

"a person's church attendance reflects their real relationship with God.  If they are not attending they are reflecting a lack of genuine love for Him." Tony Rainbow, Victory Church, Australia - 27 Nov 2011

Given the information of the rest of the sermon, the context for this is attendance of Sunday church services.

In other words, Tony was suggesting that people who do not regularly attend a church service lack a genuine love for God.  Alternatively, people only really love God if they attend church services, preferably every week.

(This kind of comment is in the same category as those that suggest "Your love for God is measured by the amount of money you give to the church.")

Shortly after Tony stated

"If you hang around (spend time with) people who hate the church or speak against it, then we are going to become like them."  Tony Rainbow, Victory Church, Australia - 27 Nov 2011

Unfortunately the implications of this are:

• No one should speak against anything a church does, even if it does or says something counter to what appears in the Bible
• Decision makers and leaders of churches view themselves as infallible
• Anyone who raises a question of how and why things are done is seen as a hater of the church and indeed the people involved in it

And even if it is possible to ignore these comments, what are the implications for our relationship with God?  Ask yourself:

• Who did God send his son, Jesus, to hang around?  Did he become like them?
• Did he speak against religious attitudes and behaviours or people?
• Who did Jesus send his disciples amongst?
• People who pursue a life that copies Jesus will be hated and persecuted because the world first hated him (John 15:18-27).  Why does Gods warn us about this?  Does it mean we are to run away or persevere?  What does each choice here say about how we view God and Jesus?
• The Bible teaches us that we are not perfect and we make mistakes.  Is this is a reason to limit our relationships to those who agree with us and behave like us (Mt 5:43-48)?
• Consider evangelism.  Who is the audience?  How can discipleship occur if we are not to spend time people who disagree with us?

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electrical factory

After leaving a factory - electrical supplies
waited for a bus but missed it by moments
therefore caught a taxi to get ahead of it
the route of the bus was around a lake
the taxi stopped at a mountain observatory, near the lake
while waiting we noticed tomatoes that had been planted (like at work)
but as I looked an orchid spring from one of the fruits

This dream is similar to others revently where I have missed the bus while getting to work
Another was at an observatory in a mountain where waiting for transport


SYMBOLS
electrical parts factory - place of construction, practical, old way of doing connecting energy
bus - achieving goals
missing it and trying to catch at another location
- setback miss an opportunity
- bus stop is where new beginning starts
taxi - ask for help
mountain lake - God
astronomical observatory - look at the heavens, 1911 Stromlo est, as is Caberran territory 100yrs
tomatoe - domestic harmony and hapiness, fertility, somethng being grown at work
orchid spring out of - celebration, love, fertility
flower out of fruit -
connected with work objects

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building funds

background context

The 'head pastor' of a local church in Canberra, Australia, announced in December 2010 that a recognised prophet said God was "forcing Fusion through some doors".  He then explained this as evidence of the "coming to pass" of a building opportunity in Crace (purchase land and build a church building/centre).

discernment

Note: There is often a gap between revelation, interpretation, and application.  As such, there are a few ways to understand the above dynamics:

• the prophecy is true and accurately understood by the hearer
• the prophecy is true but interpreted through the desires of the hearer
• the prophecy is true but 'tailored' in such a way as to be accepted by the hearer
• the prophecy is false

As a third party, someone who did not hear the words directly from God, nor the one sharing, we must discern what is going on.  It is not enough to take things at face value.  We can personally talk with God, and he with us.  Also, both the 'prophet' and hearer, in this case a 'pastor' are both human.  They are capable of misunderstanding or biasing.

In this case, did the pastor have earlier desires to build a church building?  It may not have been publicly announced and even denied.

What if the opportunity doesn't succeed?

Does this make the prophecy inaccurate?  Or was it the interpretation?

• How will the 'prophet' respond?  Seek clarity and discuss how things have been received by themselves and those they spoke with, or will they pass responsibility off onto other?
• How will the hearer respond?  Will they admit their error and seek clarity, or will they justify their position?
• What is your responsibility?

what happened next

In this situation, the land was not offered and thus a building could not be built (Nov 2011).  The 'prophet' has been silent, Matt stated that God still desires this local church to have a building, and the congregation clapped and cheered in agreement.

more discernment

Was the prophecy false?  The answer to this is unclear, but it adds possibility it was simply misinterpreted.  God wanting this local church to "go through doors" may mean go places it had not before, but it does not need to imply buildings and property or even the social and emotional associated changes that go with them.  Did anyone ask God what he meant?  Did they do this before the person in charge (the pastor) finalised the interpretation?

Assuming there will be people who will continue to justify their position, what should you as someone who chooses to discern do?  Do you confront and ask questions, or do you keep silent, for whatever reason?

personal responsibilities

• Seek God's views on the matter, seek peace and an attitude of restoration.
• Speak where possible directly with the people who made or shared the prophetic statements.  Voice the concerns.
• If they listen great.
• If they do not listen, they are now responsible for what happens next.  Yes, it is up to you whether you act in support of the project (e.g. give money). But you cannot force anyone to change.

Should you voice your concerns with others?  Maybe, but if you do, please do it with respect for all concerned.  Remember we all can hear God inaccurately and then, out of love for him, act upon it.

resolutions

How can peace occur among those who disagree?  Does peace mean finding a compromise?  Does peace mean doing what you are asked because the person who asks you is your pastor, boss, parent, etc?  Does peace mean discovering the points of agreement and building upon them?

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pastors and elders

Is church authority is limited to this one role?

spot the difference?  Are elders and pastors the same thing?

In other words, if someone is qualified to be an elder (as justified by scripture) does this make them a pastor?

If so, then anyone can and must be a pastor once they have the correct attributes. And while I do not dispute that pastors need to have these attributes, I do hesitate after reading Ephesians. This letter suggests God gave certain gifts, pastors being one, to equip his people so they could then do his work. Thus a pastor is not a way of living, it is a function. Pastors may help us gain what we need to do the work God asks of us, but does this make successful students new pastors? Surely, these attributes are true of all the gifts mentioned in Ephesians as well as any mature person.

Conversely the argument is made that if you are operating as a pastor, then you are an elder. Now while we should hope pastors are mature people, is this necessarily reality? Are there false pastors? Is it possible some people simply behave a certain way to gain approval or position? Look at what Jesus said to the Pharisees (Matthew 23). What about people who choose to start a church? Their intentions may be good, but does getting people to gather and conduct a service, with all its activities, give the right to call yourself a pastor?

scripture workshop
Look up the word poimen (pastor) in the bible. How often does it appear? Is the english translation pastor or something else? Do these references connect poimen with elders, congregations, local churches? If yes, how? If no, what are they speaking of?
When you do this just use the text you read and its surrounding context. Don't add personal understanding or the ways churches operate today.
connected link

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