please, discipline me nicely

Discipline is doing what you don't want to do when you don't want to do it.

Have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? Don’t downplay God's discipline, and don’t give up when he corrects you. For he disciplines those he loves, and punishes all those he accepts as his child.  Endure by remembering  God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by their father?  If God didn't you are not his children at all. (Hebrews 12:5-8)

click on concordance (left sidebar tools) to seek definition of discipline

• Why does God need to discipline you?
• Do you get to choose what you are disciplined for?
• Will complaining or ignoring about being disciplined stop it from happening?
• How does the author of Hebrews ask you to respond to God's discipline?
• Is this asked of you for your benefit or to harm you?  What if the discipline feels painful or is difficult?

If you are someone who believes that "only good things happen to good people" or "I know things are from God when they make me feel positive" then you are unlikely to enjoy this message.

How did Moses feel when reprimanded about his whining when asked to relay God's message to the Hebrew people captive in Egypt?

How did Job feel when put through many life trials?

What about Jonah, David, and Peter?

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gender specific messages

introduction
The use of terms referring to gender occur throughout the bible (e.g. mother, father, son, daughter, wife, husband).  Some apply to specific people.  Others provide information about a principle.  For instance:

• Characteristics of a wife … (Ps 31)
• How women should behave in church meetings … (1Co 14:34-35)
• Definition of a widow … (1Tim 5)
• How fathers need to treat their children … (Eph 6)

But how does reading Galatians 3:26-28 affect matters?

You are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.  There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

In other words, being part of God’s family means the divisions of heritage, social status, and gender are no longer relevant.  Does this mean you stop being a male or female?  No.  You still have the physical parts and the associated functions such as pregnancy and beard growing.  Then there are differences in hormones, emotions, etc.  So what exactly, does it mean for gender to be no longer relevant?

what does the bible say?

The starting point is to consider yourself in just one category: a child of God.  Do a word search of the bible using the keywords child and God.  How many of them refer to a gender?  What is common among them?

• General information (Mt 5:9; Lk 20:36; Heb 12:7-8)
• Connection to Jesus (Jn 1:12; Gal 3:7; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:14; 1Jn 5:1)
• Where they come from (Jn 11:52; Rom 9:8).
• Connection to God’s Spirit (Rom 8:14)
• What God gives them (Rom 8:17-23; Gal 3:29; Eph 3:6)
• How to recognise them (Mt 5:9; Phil 2:15; 1Pe 1:14; 1Jn 2:28; 1Jn 3:9-10; 1Jn 5:18-19)

fathers and their children

Choose one of the passages from the introduction, for example Ephesians 6: Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord.

If gender is relevant to this passage then it’s request only applies to men who are fathers.  Everyone else, including mothers, could be considered exempt and may therefore provoke children and not be responsible for the discipline of children. Such a world would make the efforts of a father impossible, so why even ask it of him.

If at the very least mothers also need to discipline their children and treat them in such a way that they are not provoked, then we must re-examine how God views things.

widows

Now read 1 Timothy 5: a widow who is put on the list for support must be a woman who is at least sixty years old and was faithful to her husband…continue reading.

Why does God repeatedly associate widows with orphans and strangers in his word?  Could it be they are each a group of vulnerable people in the community?  If gender is relevant to this passage then it’s request only applies to widowed women.  Vulnerable elderly men could be considered exempt and we may therefore ignore their needs.

But read the passage in context.  Why were female widows even brought to attention?  Was there a cultural context? Do we simply transfer the action word for word, or do we need to look at the intent between the lines?

conclusion

Whenever you read something in the bible or are given advice, look at the underlying truths.  If God treats his children equally, then we need to live that way too.  Matters of character, principle, ethics, justice, love apply to everyone.  Equally.

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danger of false teachers

“Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict everyone of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” (Enoch as quoted by Jude)

In the church there are people who will try to convince you that God allows us to live immoral lives.  Their argument is since God is all loving and forgiving, he will not allow anyone to perish.

Yet, according to the writings of Jude 1, these people deny Jesus Christ. How?
On the one hand they claim to know God by the revelations they talk about. While on the other hand, they

• live immorally, defy authority, and scoff at things they don't understand
• grumble and complain
• brag about themselves
• flatter others to get what they want
• live only to satisfy their own desires

It is through this contradictory lifestyle they try to convince you. "I call myself a Christian, a church-goer, but am not prepared to live as a child of God."

remember

• Jesus rescued Israel from Egypt, but later destroyed people who didn't remain faithful
• The angels who didn't stay within the limits of the authority God gave were imprisoned
• Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns were destroyed for their immoral living as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment

beware
When someone claims to know God but lives for themselves they will not only bring destruction upon themselves.  To merely be around them, even at a church worship service could, if you are not vigilant cause you too to stumble.

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church growth - paint by numbers

The following is a response to a spoken message by Tony Rainbow of Victory Church (Adelaide, Australia) to the people of Fusion City Church (Palmerston, Canberra - Australia)

audio link

introduction

Tony began by stating how there were about 120 believers gathered in one place after Christ's ascension (Acts 1:13-15). It was to these people Peter stood and spoke.

Please note this is the only scripture Tony uses during his entire message.

However, rather than putting this into the context of Jesus having asked them to stay in the city until they received the gift of the Spirit, Tony spoke of the significance of the number 120 in relation to human group dynamics:

• Ignores the broader church by prioritising the local
• Had it all together relationally
• Were all at everything which was connected with Jesus' training
• Relationships were like a family
• The leadership style was casual and collaborative
• Communication was informal and face to face
• There was an ease in how they gathered
• Everyone knew each other by name

But are these statements interpreted upon the bible itself or assumptions about small group dynamics?   For instance, where in the bible is proof that this or any other group knew the names of all their companions?  Indeed, was the group fluid, did people come and go?  Did anyone ever disagree on matters about God?

Instead, Tony suggests that these group characteristics, while being "the most awesome thing that could ever happen." But the problem comes when we "set this as the goal, we set a ceiling to the growth of the church, because that style of church only works with a certain number of people."

But why?  This assumption occurs when it is presumed people intended to continue gathering in groups of this size.  Why?  Because, the argument being made is to correlate church growth today with a particular gathering 2000+ years ago.

Where in this gathering is the evidence to suggest anyone intended to continue gathering in this way? What about other gathered people in the bible? Where during Jesus' life did he ever model this?

Why do people today find it necessary to justify church growth in terms of the number of people gathered?

bad logic

Arguments that try to build upon faulty assumptions tend to have personal agendas or opinions behind them. Why? Because the conclusion was considered before the evidence was sought.  Consequently, proof tends to be biased to justify seeing what we want to see.  Worse is when the bible is quoted in order to not only support the argument but actually pose it as God's idea in the first place.  The logic is: because scripture is "Holy Spirit inspired", "God's word", etc, then an argument no matter how flawed, given enough quotes, must be true.

This has occurred here with Tony.

Rarely do we allow God's word to speak for itself.

terra nullus

A further assumption being made by Tony is churches today are local in nature.  That is, a church is defined by the people who gather for services in a particular location. Yes, local churches today often have attendances of 80-150 people. However, what we forgot or ignore is local churches do not start, let alone grow, in a state of terra nullus. We falsely assume the territory our local church occupies or entered (planted) was not previously inhabited.

Was your church the first in the area you live?

And, if it was indeed a pioneer: was God there beforehand, or did God only start working in the lives of people when your church was established?

Sometimes it is a challenge to remember that your local church is but one of many, even within a few street blocks. And regionally, one among many many more.  No local church is an island unto itself.  As such, the church to which you belong is not 30, 80, or 120, but could actually be populated by many thousands.

misdirection

Tony: "Who wants the church ... to grow?  Most people want the church to grow but get stuck at a certain number.”

Tony: Churches get stuck at 150 or less because this is “about the most number of people a person can connect with.  Thus people naturally feel displaced once their group reaches 50-150 people.”

This argument continues to push the idea that church growth is about the number of people who attend a service or the number of people who choose to be members a local church.

How does God consider growth?  Is it about numbers or about invisible things like character?

If there are 100 people in a room singing hymns and listening to a message from the pulpit, how many claim to know God?  How many does God know?  Indeed, does God know anyone who is not in attendance?  Does he know them if they never attend a local church anywhere?  Is that enough?

Furthermore, if the church is indeed more than the local, how do comments like the one Tony raises, redirect how we view the importance of God dwelling among his people?

Finally, I put it to you feeling uncomfortable (displaced) is natural whenever we interact with another person.  The size of the group is irrelevant.  What matters is how you treat each person as they come.  Group size never dictates your relationship.

For a moment revisit Tony's conclusions about group dynamics in a personal way:

• Are all the relationships you have with people in your church fully healthy?
• Do you attend everything your church offers?  Do you need to?
• Do people in your church treat you like family?
• Is the leadership style of your church casual?  Does it seek guidance of other members?
• Do you communicate with people informally and face-to-face?
• Is interacting with people in your church effortless?
• Do you know everyone in your local church by name?

What does it mean if your church has less than 150 people and the answer to any of these questions 'no'? At the very least it means that group size does not determine our behaviour and attitudes.

What does help shape our behaviour and attitudes?

size culture preference

Tony: "Size in numbers is connected with a size culture needing to be broken,”

Tony: “The main problem to growth is size culture preference,”

Tony: “Bigger change is needed (when) shifting from one size to another within the same denomination (than it is to shift between) denominations of the same size.”

When read in isolation, each of these statements is accurate.  We need to become free to be God’s people no matter how big or small the group of people gathered is.  Unfortunately, this is not the context Tony is suggesting, as shown below.

What was Jesus’ focus?  Did he come for the whole world or was it dependent upon the number of people gathered, the church size?

Why did Jesus so often avoid crowds?

 be big or be small

The following is a list of differences between small and larger churches.  The argument posed was churches with large numbers of people (more than 150) need to do things differntly to smaller ones.  Hence, to grow, a church must change the way it does things.  In short, population size affects activity.  An additional conseuqence of this idea is that smaller congregations are inherently different.  But given churches, no matter their size have people in them, is this accurate?

1.  smaller churches are less complex than larger gatherings because as the group size increases…

• The less we will have in common with one another.

But, how does this match with what is written in Ephesians 4?

• Not everything can happen in one Sunday service anymore (e.g. prayer is shifted to prayer meetings, exploring the word to a bible school, discipleship into home groups).

But how could everything occur during a single church service anyway, regardless of its size? What about evangelism, or family, or helping neighbours, etc?  In other words, how does delegating what daily life to set times and facilitators help?  How could you for instance pray, understand God’s word, or disciple others at home, work, school, wherever you are during your week?

2.  smaller churches need less production effort than larger churches

• The more people involved, the more planning, lead time, etc is required to enable services and other activities to occur.  Events can no longer simply be thrown together as they are were with smaller gatherings.

To what extent are these events really necessary?  Are buildings, electronic audio devices, instruments, putting out chairs, etc essential to what God needs to do?  How do similar activities occur in parts of the world where money is non-existent?  Did Jesus live this way?  For Jesus, which came first, his mission or his method?

• Smaller churches don't value the importance of quality of their activities as much as larger churches.  For example, because they embrace people, they permit anyone to sing and play an instrument regardless of their ability. 

Good.  The day we prefer how good a song sounds over the willingness of people to worship God and embrace one another, will be a sad day indeed.  To worry whether visitors are “put-off” based upon singing ability says more about how people view us, than our desire to be in God's presence.  To believe singing ability affects whether people have a “poor” or good impression of the pastor's message, or will “attract people or not” is naive at best (1 Corinthians 2).

3.  the ministry roles of smaller churches are not as specialised as those of larger churches

• Small church ministries generalise what they do whereas larger churches specialise. 

Again, this is not a matter of scale.  God gives his gift for the entire church.  Hospitality, prophesy, teaching, etc are not dependent upon how many people are gathered but who needs to be equipped so they may do what God asks of them.  Why?  Because there are other people who either don’t know him or still need help to grow personally and as a community.

• Only one person who can bring leadership and direction to this church. Thus it is an indictment (strong wrongdoing) for this person to do tasks that others could do. 

Christ and Christ alone is the one and only leader and director of the church.  Placing a person as the sole hearer and interpreter of God's word is dangerous, arrogant, and controlling.  It encourages a false separation among God's people which may cause some to shirk their responsibility to speak with and listen to God directly, and others to not discern or question what they are told to believe and do.

4.  small groups of people do not experience changes to the same degree as bigger groups

• Because not everyone will agree on the course of action to be taken, power to decide
  needs to move away from the congregation (all people) to a leadership team (a few).  This will enable decisions to be made more quickly.
  

Yes, absolutely, there will be times when, maybe every time, when disagreement will occur.  But to justify this as the reason for concentrating this priveledge in the hands of a few has the potential to ignore insight.  At the very least sharing our differences, in a manner that is respectful of others, helps to bring us closer together.  If nothing else, it evidences the contempt and lack of trust some church leaders and pastors have for people.

To simply claim possession of the decision making for yourself is again dangerous, arrogant, and controlling.  Why? People are being asked to rely on Man rather than seek God, together.  The outcome, people are shaped in the image of the decision makers and not God.

So the next time you are invited to seek God about a decision, discern whether your consultation is genuinely being sought: are opposing views listened to and acted upon?  How is the decision to be made proposed: does it sound like they just want agreement on  something they have already decided on? Is there a personal agenda hidden among words that try to convince you that what is being presented is really God's vision?

• When people leave because of the changes, this proves the church is growing.

Why?  What if you are wrong and they were right?  Was consultation ever permitted?  Maybe people are leaving for totally unrelated reasons.  Are people who stay encouraged to speak with those who leave to find out why?

• There needs to be greater emphasis on vision and strength... churches need to do fewer things so they can do them well.  Likewise a church shouldn't try to do everything in the community, but try to do some things really well.  Both of these will depend upon the existing skill set and gift set.

While there is some truth in this, it ignores that regardless of the church size, there may never be every skill and gift available for what God is desiring to do.  It is not enough to limit what can be done based upon the resources available.  Doing this reveals a belief that we can do things in isolation and in our own strength.  Let us start by seeking God about what he is doing and how we need to grow and be equipped to accomplish it.  If this includes  cooperating with people outside our group, so be it.

conclusion

• What does God consider important when it comes to growth?
• Are we lending ourselves to a culture of self, preference, and prejudice?
• Should what we do be a by-product of the size of our church group or should what we do be a product of who we are in Christ?

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real love = attending church

The following is a response to a spoken message by Tony Rainbow of Victory Church (Adelaide, Australia) to the people of Fusion City Church (Canberra – Australia)

audio link

 

Topic being shared: Staying the Course

For the most part this message shared was positive.  However, part way through Tony stated:

"a person's church attendance reflects their real relationship with God.  If they are not attending they are reflecting a lack of genuine love for Him." Tony Rainbow, Victory Church, Australia - 27 Nov 2011

Given the information of the rest of the sermon, the context for this is attendance of Sunday church services.

In other words, Tony was suggesting that people who do not regularly attend a church service lack a genuine love for God.  Alternatively, people only really love God if they attend church services, preferably every week.

(This kind of comment is in the same category as those that suggest "Your love for God is measured by the amount of money you give to the church.")

Shortly after Tony stated

"If you hang around (spend time with) people who hate the church or speak against it, then we are going to become like them."  Tony Rainbow, Victory Church, Australia - 27 Nov 2011

Unfortunately the implications of this are:

• No one should speak against anything a church does, even if it does or says something counter to what appears in the Bible
• Decision makers and leaders of churches view themselves as infallible
• Anyone who raises a question of how and why things are done is seen as a hater of the church and indeed the people involved in it

And even if it is possible to ignore these comments, what are the implications for our relationship with God?  Ask yourself:

• Who did God send his son, Jesus, to hang around?  Did he become like them?
• Did he speak against religious attitudes and behaviours or people?
• Who did Jesus send his disciples amongst?
• People who pursue a life that copies Jesus will be hated and persecuted because the world first hated him (John 15:18-27).  Why does Gods warn us about this?  Does it mean we are to run away or persevere?  What does each choice here say about how we view God and Jesus?
• The Bible teaches us that we are not perfect and we make mistakes.  Is this is a reason to limit our relationships to those who agree with us and behave like us (Mt 5:43-48)?
• Consider evangelism.  Who is the audience?  How can discipleship occur if we are not to spend time people who disagree with us?

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ephesians

When Paul wrote to God’s people of Ephesus, he praised God.  Why?

• God blesses us with every spiritual blessing because we are united with Christ. 

God loved us and adopted us into his own family, by making us holy and without fault in his eyes through Christ...

• Who is part of God's family? [LINK]

Paul then explains God’s plan regarding Christ:

1. Everything would be brought together under Christ’s authority
2. We receive an inheritance from God because we are united with Christ
3. United Jews and Gentiles into one people by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations and thus all who hear the truth about Jesus, and believe, bring praise and glory to God

• What is God's plan? 
• What did we receive and who received it?
• How did Jesus do this?
• What are the implications?

God put everything under Christ’s authority.  He is the head of everything for the benefit of the church (his body).

• Who belongs to God’s family?
• Who does the church need to be led by in order for it to benefit?
• What are the implications when we place someone or something as the head of the church?

Therefore Paul begs people to lead lives worthy of being called by God. To always be humble, gentle, patient, make allowances for one other’s faults, and united in peace.  Why?  There is one body (church), one Spirit, one hope for the future, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father.

• What is your calling? A ministry or that Christ calls us to follow him?  Explain
• If we choose to follow then how should we live?  Read also 1Corinthians13
• Why?

However, he gave each one of us a special gift through Christ: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

• Does this mean each individual receives these things directly.  Or something else?
• What is their responsibility?
• Who are these gifts for?  Why?
• How should the success of these gifts be measured?
• What is the responsibility of God's people?
• How long will this exercise take?  What does that look like?
• How can success be measured?

Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth. Instead, we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church. He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.

If God’s people do what God asks of them and are equipped by the ‘fivefold ministries’ to do so … what will the church look like

What is Christ’s role in all this?  What are the implications for us?

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forgive others so you will be rewarded?

It was recently stated in a church setting that "the person who benefits the most from the gift of forgiveness is the person who forgives.  Forgiveness is not so much about the benefits the other person gets.  Forgiveness is actually about you."  The preacher then went onto explain all the benefits a person gets when they forgive someone else.

But can this be true?

When God forgave us, was this action more about him (the giver) or us humans (the receiver)?  Did he send Jesus, his only begotten son so he could get something for himself?

If he did, do we need to re-evaluate the entire premise of God?

But if forgiveness is actually more about the recipient, the person being forgiven, about their freedom, and God asks us to copy how he does things and why, then surely we must put aside what we may or may not get out of it.

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who are God's gifts for?

Read Ephesians 4

• Christ gave the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
• Why?
  › To equip God’s people so they can to do his work and build up the church.
• Why?
  › Because as each does their own special work, it helps others grow, enabling the whole church to be healthy, grow, and full of love.
• How long will this continue?
  › Until we all come to unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son. That is, we are mature, full and complete like Christ.
  › We are no longer influenced by false teachings that sound like the truth. Instead we will speak the truth in love, growing more like Christ.

It is sometimes suggested that God gives people, specifically christians, spiritual gifts. Examples of these are found in the New Testament, with Ephesians 4 (above), Romans 12, and 1 Corinthians 12 being the main ones. This list is probably not an exhaustive one. Please note that each of these three all are introduced by a description of the unity and diversity in the body of Christ.

who are God's gifts for?
A quick definition is that the gifts God gives enable his people to do the things he needs to happen.

• Does this mean they are spiritual or practical gifts?
• Does God only give them to church people or anyone who follows Jesus Christ?
• Are they for the benefit of the person who is given the gift or for someone else?

The purpose of this message is to explore the third question: are the gifts God gives for the person he gives them to or for others.
People who suggest God's gifts, spiritual or otherwise, and whoever they are given to, are for the benefit of the receiver tend to justify this by claiming that having a gift:

• Gives you purpose; gives you a reason to get out of bed in the morning
• Helps you in personal ways (worship, understand people, heal, etc)
• Enables you to feel special or even loved
• Helps improve you intellectually and/or morally
• Proves you are 'saved' or 'filled by God's spirit'
• Helps increase your power and influence or helps draw attention to your importance

What is common between the following passages of the bible (1Co12:7; Eph 4:12; 1Pe 4:10)? Do they recommend seeking gifts from God to benefit yourself or others?

conclusion

So are any of these reasons valid? Yes, all except the last wherein attention needs to be directed to God as they are his gifts, his power, his influence. And yet the yes is a qualified yes. A trumpet does not own the breath given it anymore than we do what is given us. The air does not belong to the trumpet. The gift is not yours. Nor is the input of the air what was intended, rather the sound out the other end. The music.

Moreover, if the music cannot be heard, no matter how gifted the musician, what was the point? So could be said of God's gifts. He invests them in you so others can be affected. And in the case of Ephesians 4, he enables some to equip others, who may then affect even more.

 The question then is who are these other people?

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winds of change

"I still hold out hope that one day the wind will change back."

adapted from an article written by Ron McGatlin 

"I still hold out hope that one day the wind will change back."

what is church ministry?

• Grow in numbers?
• Improve its activities and services?
• Perform benevolent acts?
• Have greater prosperity?
• Do more and better evangelism?
• To heal people physically, emotionally, and spiritually?

These are a few examples of the results of the ecclesia (church), but they are not the goal. The goal is Christ dwelling among his people, who as a result mature with his character and nature, in the world, producing God’s kingdom and righteousness.

• This is the work of his Spirit and not a work of our efforts (Romans 8:11; Galatians 5:22)
• The love of Christ flowing from a pure heart is the most powerful world changing force.  Fear, pride, lust, greed, envy, and every evil work can be overpowered by love from a pure hearted people touching and changing our household and those who abide within then spilling out to the world (1 Timothy 1:5).

embracing the original goals

The love and gifts flowing through relationship are becoming the primary structure replacing institutional structure (e.g. intimacy with God, Father's love, "Christ in you", transformation, reformation, church without walls, etc).

We are learning that we do not "go to church" nor "join a church", but we are "added to the church". We are the church. In a way christians are taught about the church being a 'priesthood of the believer'.  However, we have not fully acted upon this understanding. The gap between the officials (pastor, priest, elders, bishop, etc) and the ordinary person continues to prevent us from fully enabling the priesthood of all believers.

 

systems, not the church will end

In the confusion of transition some think anarchy and rebellion are coming against the church and attempting to throw off leadership (e.g pastors and elders). If there are, they are wrong. The new paradigm will bring forth many times more gifted men and women who have in the passing systems been relegated to pew sitting, or limited jobs.

leadership and headship differences

There is one human head of the ecclesia (church). No one man stands as head over the church, local, regionally, or universally. No priest, pastor, or pope.  Nor does anyone represent the head to the mature believers.  The head is Christ Jesus.

Leadership simply means those further down the road on which we all are walking. The mature lead the immature until they are matured, then they lead other immature people, in turn.  How? By helping people to clearly hear God and live as he asks.

The term the bible uses is elder.  An elder has nothing to do with an office or official role. Elders lead by example, training and assisting the immature.  Elders:

• shepherd and oversee
• allow people to observe them and their lives, then
  
• release the maturing disciples to do the work while they watch, then
• leave them to do the work, themself now considered mature, an elder

don't to be mislead

• by reactions of people who fear losing the systems that have served them for so long, or
• by those who attempt to repackage the passing system practices with new labels
• by worring about where people gather, for our man-made traditions work whatever the venue (e.g. traditional church, a house, at work).

The move is about Christ truly becoming the head in a practical real way and not just in word only.

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